Tuesday, March 28, 2006
A 40 Caliber Nightmare Is Caught On Tape.
So you’re confident that that .40 caliber S&W service round will keep you safe. Maybe you’ll have second thoughts after you see this video. One hot summer night in 1994 Tempe and Mesa Arizona police were involved in a pursuit with this suspect who ran into a stranger’s apartment to hide after being shot TWICE in the chest. He was shirtless and you can see the blood pumping out of those two wounds. What’s really frightening is just how agile this fellow is as he struts to the ambulance. If he was not handcuffed and had a knife or a gun, ask yourself if he could still hurt you, your partner or a hostage? If your jurisdiction demands that officers carry either the 9MM or the .40 Caliber S&W it’s time to show this video to your bosses and lobby to have the .45 ACP round authorized. The switch may well reduce the screaming by self-appointed community activists about how many rounds police had to use on a suspect. The really talented and courageous video journalist, Karen Kelly, shot this tape. Karen was always in trouble with the cops for getting too close to the action. Tapes like these exonerate cops from bogus allegations far more often than incriminating them for misconduct. My advice to all cops dealing with photojournalists is to let them get as close to your prisoners as possible. Chasing them away is really dumb. They can well document that the suspect is not injured. Letting the news bunnies ask questions is another gift when the suspects lie or implicate themselves. Remember Miranda vs. Arizona does NOT apply to questioning by reporters. The prosecutors always love showing tapes of wisecracking or deceitful suspects to juries during trials. A note: I edited the tape to display this suspect’s fabulous strut to the ambulance twice. Learn from the tape and please pass it around in the interest of officer safety.
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Where do you come up with all this great stuff? Wow! I'm showing this to the Range officers as soon as I can!
THANK YOU PAUL!
Paul, was the guy high on something? You always hear that people on PCP or other such drug don't die very easily. That stuff is amazing!
The guy was released from the hospital after four days. I don’t know what they recovered from his blood and urine. I will say that the body’s own Adrenaline is a wonder drug we too often forget about.
Remember it’s not about killing the anyone but quickly stopping his threat.
You have an awesome blog. Keep it up.
Is there any way to download this video? Unfortunately I cannot get it to play through my web browser on my main computer, and my second comp doesn't have a sound card setup.
Send me an e-mail request through my profile page...
It's the magic mullet!
I've seen every bullet fail at one time or another. I have seen the .45 stop between the lip and teeth. based upon that, you should lobby agaisnt the .45. the lesson learned here is to keeping shooting until the threat is stopped.
Great video Paul. Thanks.
Just goes to show you - if you're justified in launching one round at the assailant, then launch a whole mag!
who shot the pos in the first place?
don't know who is dumber, him or the cops WALKING him to the ambulance ... can you imagine the hue and cry if he had collapsed and died while that idiocy was going on?
great info. i'd still rather have 14 .40's than 6 or 7 .45's
A 9MM MAY expand. A .45 NEVER shrinks!
if the offender was from chicago he'd be a rich man by now. i bet if 2 .45cal man stoppers had hit him in the chest, his destroyed spine and sternum would of slowed his strut to the ambulance, and hopefully to the bank when the city settled for thousands of dollars.
-CPD, MARQUETTE DISTRICT
the man was attained, handcuffed and arrested. without thosetwo shots in him he would of killed that officer. it's about controlling your environment, not taking ones life.
sig 226 equinox owner
What round were they fireing?Probably a 165 gr. ,about 900-1000Ft.per.sec,with 300 ft.lbs or so.I fire a 135 gr.,1325 FT.per.sec.,526 ft.lbs.,in my 40.I guarantee,with my 2 shots,he wouldnt be walking!
All calibers fail under the right circumstances, but I'd wager that you'd be able to find a whole lot more suspects lacking "the strut" after two rounds to the chest from a .40
The key lesson to take away from this video is not to choose a different caliber --- many departments don't offer that option --- the real lesson is to shoot until the threat CEASES TO BE A THREAT.
How do you know for sure it was a .40S&W round?? Some cops carry 9mm's to. I would like to see someone prove that question before you knock the .40. JMO
The Glock .40 cal were the new issue service pistols of the Mesa AZ police at the time. They used .40 S&W jacketed hollow points. There were no 9 MMs involved!
The offender was critically wounded but survived.
He was an ex-con who was returned to prison where he is serving 25 years.
Bigger is better but officers must keep their skills up and follow their training.
I know of a case where an armed robber was shot in the heart with a .12 guage one ounce, slug and still ran 70 yards before he fell and died. So much for a magic bullet...
January 13, 2008 7:47 PM
1994? I'll bet those JHP's were Hydra-shocks, a round proven to produce nasty wounds but few kills. Great video / blog.
I have shot with cops that can't hit the broad side of a barn when practicing and some that can hit match sticks at 25 yds. The first shot and every shot counts so put them where they belong! I just hate the spray and pray mentality.
I would say 2 rounds in the chest is adaquate depending on distance.
If this didn't do it, get more feet
per second at the muzzle! JAB
Well, what about the video that shows a guy fighting with a state trooper for several minutes after being gut shot with a .45? Also, a guy lived after being shot between the eyes at close range with a .357 magnum. This could go on and on about any caliber.
How far was the officer? What Angle? Was he on drugs? What type of ammo? I could go on and on.He lived so that means .40 is useless. You are so wrong and sound very ignorant. Are you telling us you can take a .40 to the chest also and live. A perfectly placed 22 will kill you.
Police agency trainers are not supposed to disparage the authorized ammunition. The politicians that demand agencies use ineffective get their department rangemasters to hold their noses and teach shot placement. The truth is simple, bigger is better. Nothing is more important than shot placement. It’s not about killing criminal suspects, but rather quickly stopping the offender from killing you or others.
I agree a .45 would be nice, but when you factor in Mag capacity between the .40 and the .45 the .40 wins hands down. The carry weight difference alone would do it. I know some will say this ain't Iraq guys, the odds of you needing to do many quick mag changes are slim to none. Put two in the center of the "A" zone . Old saying " shoot two look, shoot two." Works for me!!! LOL
I've carried everything from 38's to 45's. I currently have a 40, a 10 MM (Colt Double Eagle) and a new Taurus Melineum Pro in 45 (as well as a pocket 380). There is no (and I repeat NO) real significant advantage of the 45 over the 40 with equivalent ammo. The 10 MM has been shown to completely penetrate and not deliver all of its stopping power to people sized targets. As has been said by others, this guy just lucked out and wasn't hit in a way that would put him down. Either the angle or deflection, or something saved his bacon.
Fire 3 quick, center-of-mass, and try to keep them in the 10 inch circle around the heart and lungs. The .45 is a definite man-stopper, but trying to put that through windows or doors on vehicles, (where an officer more than likely has to shoot,) it doesn't do the job. The .40 has the muzzle-velocity to make it happen. Size matters to a degree; but stopping power comes from converting the energy of the round into the target quickly.
Even a 9mm with good HP can achieve this. It's about getting the round to stop suddenly in your target, that puts it down.
And as has been previously stated, if the first series doesn't put them down, give them some more!
the problem could be solved by remembering the golden rule.
two to the chest & ONE TO THE HEAD
ONE TO THE HEAD
"Fire 3 quick, center-of-mass, and try to keep them in the 10 inch circle around the heart and lungs. The .45 is a definite man-stopper, but trying to put that through windows or doors on vehicles, (where an officer more than likely has to shoot,) it doesn't do the job. The .40 has the muzzle-velocity to make it happen."
Are you shooting the same .45 ACP ammo I did, or have things changed so much since I switched from autos to single actions?
In my younger days I would take my mother, (yes, my Mom), out shooting in various locations. One of our favorites was an old abandoned junk car lot. We both carried .45 ACP's. Even from Mom's shorter Colt Officer's Model we got GREAT penetration through car doors and windows - even the old American steel from the '40's and 50's!
Now-a-days I carry a New Vaquero .45 Colt and rely more on the Mossberg 12ga. at home
This video doesn't show the angle of the gunshots. Were the wounds superficial, where the suspect was standing bladed to the officers when he was shot?
Regarding the earlier comment about 14 40s vs 7 rounds of 45, my KImber Polymer holds 14 in the mag; my Glock 21 holds about that many too; etc.
I roll full power 10mm. Ok thx bye now....
The point is to stop someone not kill them. This doesint prove shit but ignorance on the subject. Its all about were you place it a 22 could be more reliable then a 45 depending on difference situations, range, the person shot and the one shooting. Also of course they carry him out to the ambulance, he was shot and went out peacefully. All this proves is those cops did there jobs.
I am not advocating anything other that shoot them till they stop, but I read somewhere that if you were to shoot someone in the pelvis that most larger rounds >9mm would most likely break the pelvis, leaving the person shot unable to walk, not to mention the pain from a gut shot.
This was in 1994. Hollowpoint design and propellant efficiencies have seen dramatic improvements in just the last four or five years let alone the last 14 years.
its easy here in South africa we do it the proper way, two in the chest one in the head. that generally stops them...
All these comments about not shooting to kill is wrong. One of the big rules of firearm safety is don't point a weapon at anything you don't want to kill or destroy. If you are opening fire on someone you are intending to use lethal force. Also part of the reason the .40 has become so widely used is its an easier to control when firing multiple rounds.
how about upgrading those who serve us with a with an upgraded round. 357 sig would have done the job on this suspect as penetration was desired here. the 357 sig would have reached bone structure, therefore paralizing the suspect. good luck outhere guys!!
i advocate killing the suspect.
I wish we had more cops like the guys that were in MAGNUM FORCE.
I advocate use of a flame thrower too. When someone is flaming they wont really want to fight anymore.
You americans are sick in the head. Yes, i'd like to have it bigger too, but unfortunately we have to stick with what nature (or the armory) gave us. :))
Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit. Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol and/or sheer will and survival determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.
for the .45 chest beaters:
All we need to remember when faced with a suitable threat is what they taught in the POST Academy, "Failure Drill". Two to center mass, one to the head. If the subject doesn't drop from pressure loss then he'll have one hell of a headache.
Ballistically, your statement of "So you’re confident that that .40 caliber S&W service round will keep you safe" makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. A ..45, 40, 9MM, .38, .22... I personally don't want to get shot by either, as they are all lethal. As I breezed through some of the comments, I can see some real world people making statements of placement and count, some placement (head) OK, you have to do what you have to do in the proper situation, however, I see no ballistics report, on this particular incident, to warrant such a statement. I'm sorry, but if your hit (correctly) with any caliber, your going down (6 ft. down) I dont say this out of "love" of any particular caliber, more so because my father was a deputy coroner, and eventually managed the morgue of the largest county in the US. I've personally seen many fatal gun shot wounds. As far as I can see, the LEO, did his job at stopping a threat. Did this particular individual die later?? Most do to gun shot wounds, as they are wandering around, dripping blood everywhere, in shock, and or high on drugs! People need to get off the caliber trip, get more training, practice "what if" in all aspects of self defense. All gun drawing situations, call for a min. double tap (proper placement is key.. ask any pathologist!)
Be safe out there :-)
PS.. Placement!! Now go get more training!! LEO's are by far, no exception as yes.. they are people too and are deathly afraid of guns, loosing their life, children, wives and loved ones. Huge mis conception.. law enforcement officers don't go to gun fights, everyday, however they have to go to work everyday like they are.. God Bless you all!!
THE BOTTOMLINE...NOTHING BEATS A 45 CALIBER ROUND FOR STOPPING POWER...PERIOD...AND IT WILL SAVE A POLICE OFFICER OR A CIVILIANS LIFE IN THE LONG RUN...
Just got through reading an account of an El Paso off-duty officer that killed three with a .40 cal handgun. Two died instantly, and the third bled out before medics could render aid. This one was shot in both ARMS. Not central mass as is standard doctrine. From the look of the photos, at least one of the shots fractured the humerus and most probably the brachial artery. I think plenty of anecdotal evidence could verify the lethality of .40 cal when the shots hit the right places.
i shoot 40 s&w 135 grain hp made by double
-tap 1375 fps / 4"bbl
this man would have not moved after being shoot once
i remember the shooting by illnois state police, they had to shoot this guy 32 times. they were issued s&w 59s. the 40 cal is alot like the 44 special. the 10mm is some what over kill and 40 hot loads seem to be on the mark. a doctor in miami fl. shot an intruder with a 40 cal.,one shot stop it stopped just under the skin in his back.
To all you disparaging the .45acp based on magazine capacity:
My H&K USP fullsize in .45 auto holds 10+1 rnds standard or 12+1 w/ hicap mag.....with that kind of firepower my Beretta 92fs w/ 15rnds of 9mm is obsolete.....AND the H&K weighs the same and is more accurate than the Beretta. Also weighs much less than a lower capacity 1911.
There is just no comparison.
For the .45 ACP crowd, please, do the math: a .357 has about 30% more kinetic energy than a .45. It is much more likely to stop the "strut".
Formula for kinetic energy of a bullet in foot-pounds is
bullet weight in grains x velocity squared divided by 450395.
.357 delivers a LOT more punch.
I don't buy the hype on the .45 being the all powerful bullet to end all.
There is NO magic bullet caliber out there.
It's been tested time and time again.
The myth that the .45 caliber is the one that will stop all comers is a huge one.
Using the General Julian Hatcher value system, there isn't much difference between a.45 ACP and a .40 cal.
.45 ACP full metal jacket 230 grain .......... 49.1
.45 ACP jacketed hollow point 230 grain ...... 60.7
.40 S&W full metal jacket flat nose 180 grain ...... 53.4
.40 S&W jacketed hollow point 180 grain ....... 59.4
Take note, the .40 FMJ out performs the .45 FMJ
You want a handgun cartridge that has a Hatcher value of over 50 for the most effective stopping power.
Anything over 55 is just adding recoil to the issue.
I'll stick with my Beretta 96 in .40 caliber loaded with 180 grain JHPs.
And if you're just wondering, .44 Magnum full metal jacket 240 grain ....... 92.3
I've seen people shot damn near point blank with a .45 walk away from it too...it's not the bullet, it's shot placement. If it hits nothing vital, the offender will either continue his assault, or flee to commit more crimes another day.
Hello, The video is great. I was shot...accidentally at point blank range with a S&W M&P .40Cal full metal jacket. The bullet entered in my right thigh went the groin area (ouch) and stopped near the skin in my outer left thigh. When I realized I had been shot (I was in the sitting position)my body freaked and took off. I went maybe 10 feet and dropped.
I believe in the .45 but do this. Take any gun and a .44 mag. Shoot a paper target. You will find the paper still there behind the hole except with the .44 mag. You will have a clean hole. I believe it travels at 1,480 ft. per second.
I was gutshot with a 1911 in attempted robbery here in NYC only a couple of years ago. Despite the bullet hitting my lung and liver, I was still able to run 2 blocks from my assailant. Theres no magic bullet.
I was involved in a shooting at Midway Airport a few years back and my weapon was a SW 4006 with 185gr Talon rounds(yeah yeah I know )
the offender was coming at me with a tomahawk and ignored several commands to drop it and stop. I fired one round,center mass from about 15 ft away. The guy STOOD THERE LOOKING AT ME. Honest to God I looked at the gun and thought it was broken. I came up for the 2nd shot and he fell,dead.
I learned later that the man was wearing 2 CPD leather jackets and a nylon windbreaker. The round that stopped him went thru and thru. But I gotta tell ya,those first 5 seconds after I shot him I honestly thought I had Bum Ammunition. (MORE)
I now carry a SW MP 40(15+1) and use Corbon Ammunition(the hottest round made unless you hand load).
I personally like .40 cal. .45 will do the job up close and will cause a gaping wound and a lot of damage. I do own 3 .45's A Sig P-220 and Colt MK4(customed by Wilson) and a Kimber Custom Combat(present to myself after 20)
If any round should be removed from service its the 9MM. It was a sad excuse by gun manufacturers to get into the semi auto market. The ONLY thing it did for you was gave you higher capacity than the old SW 686.
I will however have to say that I do like my .40 cal. given the circumstances of my shooting,it performed flawlessly.
Someone on this thread just said a .357 mag delivers more energy than a .45 or .40. The FBI testing and many others have shown the terminal ballistics of a .40 & 357 is the same. The kinetic energy of a .45 is much greater than a .357 & the cavity wound is much greater. This video proves nothing. Who knows where the rounds hit? Maybe not center chest. Maybe high left and right. Pick up Dave Grossman's book On Combat. Great book. A .40 will drop a bear, look it up.
If it was the 90's likely it was the 180 grain subsonic load, its kind of a .45 round but a bit smaller and lighter, i.e much less effective.
Modern .40 S&W is usually 155 grains @ 1200 FPS, about the same as a .357 midrange load, possibly a bit better actually as its a mm larger though usually harder with a more shallow meplat
That being said the Anon who mentioned "anything can fail" is correct
When I was doing training I taught the mantra "two to the chest and one to the head assures that the suspect is dead, dead, dead". The bottom line is, a wounded perp can still kill you. Shoot to stop the threat.
The .357 Sig has been slow to catch on but the agencies who use it have been amazed at how fast it incapacitates. The perceived recoil is less than the .40 but is a little louder..no harm there and the platform is smaller than the typical .45acp making it useable by the size spectrum of LEO these days. Force is boosted more by velocity than by mass so the scary speeds of Sig loads make them pretty formitable and practical. E=mass X velocity (2)squared
Don't believe it?....take it up with Einstein
The Ammo you have shown are also in my stock.
One to the head now you know he dead
The reason he was able to walk was likely because the bullets didn't penetrate far enough, this is what happens when your overly concerned about over-penetration. I'm betting it was a light 135-155 grain .40, take the equivalent 165-185 grain .45 (roughly the same sectional density respectively) and I guarantee you it would have done the same thing. .45 is a fine caliber, but you .45 nuts consider it a be all end all. I know of one man hit 4 times with 230-grain ball out of a full size 1911, 2 in the abdomen area and 2 in the chest, he drove himself to the hospital where they recovered all 4 slugs, one hit his small intestine, the rest missed everything in his torso and he was released from the hospital a short time later. The .45 got it's reputation fighting malnourished and dehydrated Japanese soldiers in WWII, while they may have been on drugs, bullets didn't have to penetrate much to hit their vitals and stop them. There is in fact NO discernable difference in a wound track between the 9mm, .40 and .45 except than 9mm penetrates the furthest, then .40, then .45... In it's common ball form and equal make of hollow point with equal sectional density. Carry a .45 if that's what you want, but don't expect a different result, .45s have failed a TON of times, most often because they don't penetrate very well. Why do you think the .38 Super Auto came about in the old days for 1911s? Because the .45 had a horrible time penetrating car windows and doors, much less having enough energy to do any significant damage to the target behind it.
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